Posts by Jonathan Drake

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

@myelaine

in my opinion, I think you just hate the qoran and are personally biased, which prevents you from being able to see beyond your current understsnding.

I would posit to you that you missed the point of Jesus message. It's not your place to decide what is or is not anti Christ, or who is wrong or right. This, once again, has been something I've said many times in different ways. I'm maintaining the position of an opinion that the qoran is being misunderstood without saying anyone is necessarily wrong. I'm trying to get you all to see that while you may be right, you might be wrong- something I have no problem readily admitting. Whereas, you want me to say your right- and I will not. (Matt7:1,2)

i feel quite comfortable not judging one way or the other, and instead maintaining faith, and hope for the best for all. (1 Cor 13:4-13)

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

honestly this thread has exhausted me. As I've already said, let's leave it alone. The Quran also says God may show mercy to those who do good regardless of their belief... But you ignore that completely.

I just dont don't have the will to keep this thread going. Believe what you want, read how you want, and interpret what you will. Let's leave the judgement of right and wrong to christ if he shows up, and time if he doesn't. I'm okay with that.

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

The Imams read it. The book remains the same. I guess the religion doesn't promote literacy or learning which isn't a great endorsement.
...
The problems with religion that follow ancient texts has everything to do with both the texts and the people who interpret them.

I agree with this, the religion does have problems. I've stated this previously in agreeing with Exams and yourself, and conceded that surely some fault does rest with the antique language and lack of clarity in the Quran, but not all of it.

IN MY OPINION, the majority of the fault rests with the teachers who convince the people of these things and the people for actually believing it. The Quran does have some fault, I'll concede, but I would argue that the major issue rests with those who interpret it to mean insanity and that while the Quran shares blame, its more like it's part of the fire, not the fuel- the fuel is the people's interpretion. That's what I'm trying to say at this point.

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

Poor literacy levels in the Muslim World doesn't change this. They're taught various interpretations from the local imams.

This is precisely my point, they aren't reading it for themselves. So the blame would not rest with the Quran, but how the imams are teaching; because the people can't even read it! Lol

this does not undo the fact that the Quran should still be modernized of course, but it does show the real issue is how it's being interpreted, and how it's being taught, not what it says necessarily- because they can't even read it.

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

Viv said:
Thanks for that quote. It clearly shows that I never said abortion was deplorable. On a side note, the above chart is making a lot of sense.

Viv said:
I've no need to explain something I never said.

The thing being interpreted clearly commands rape, murder, slavery, abortion, genocide, theft and murder. It is a deplorable thing. There is no moral defense for this.

Please... PLEASE ANYONE ELSE MAKE SENSE OF THIS TO ME

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

Drake - I don't think cofty had only ISIS in mind, rather, I'm pretty sure he meant most of the Muslim world. This includes KSA, Pakistan, Iran, Yemen, Afghanistan, Jordan, Egypt, Sudan, northern Nigeria, Somalia ...

Oh you know what I think you're right.

so I'll say this, as I've said before, defending islam isn't really my goal. However... Cofty and others have said most Muslims haven't even read the Quran, and this is true, so again, how can the Quran be blamed...?

Under the Ottoman empire, worldwide Muslim literacy rates were only 2 to 3% in the early nineteenth century.
6 out of 10 Muslims worldwide still cannot read (as opposed to only 2 out of 10 people in "Christendom")
Nearly 1 in 3 people in the Arab world are illiterate, including nearly half of all women.

Taken from:

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Muslim_Statistics

Now, on this page you see all the terrible things happening in the Muslim world. I say again, my interest was never in defending islam. I would draw everyone's attention to the fact that 60% of all Islam CANNOT READ. Hence they have never read the Quran. So how are we blaming the Quran, when it's not even possibly at fault?

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

The thing being interpreted clearly commands rape, murder, slavery, abortion... There is no moral defense for this.

Again, your sayin it clearly means something when hundreds of millions disagree. What is clear to you is crazy to others.

Also, you believe abortion is deplorable amd immoral? Explanation of this possible?

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

Pretending the repeatedly plain language...

Plain to YOU. YOU are interpreting what you read, and now your calling that interpretation, "plain" and saying any who dont agree with you are dishonest....

Id really love for someone else to respond to you, I'm surely not the only one noticing your nonsense.

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

It is in those lands that we find the greatest amount of violence, intolerance, misogyny and oppression. Why?

this is just not the case. There are at most only 50,000 members of ISIS.

in America alone:

There were an estimated 1,163,146 violent crimes reported to law enforcement last year
http://www.crimeinamerica.net/crime-rates-united-states/

Just because there is a high concentration of these crimes in ISIS, does not mean they outnumber the rest of the world in such crimes.

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

But surely the Quran shares a little of the blame? I mean, if the Quran said: 'be peaceful, love your enemies and killing is wrong' then the Muslim extremists would be very, very peaceful.

Yes, it needs to be modernize and clarified so that the real meaning is clear. I agree with this, part of the problem is lack of the perspective tha would provide the right understsnding.